Truck! Truck! Truck!

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 08/17/2018 at 10:35 • Filed to: wingspan, Planelopnik

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While rushing to get to a BBQ dinner on the other side of the airport, this van driver crossed an active runway and came closer than you’d like to getting hit by an Envoy Air Embraer 145 taking off with 57 passengers on board. Though it looks like a reckless move on the part of the van driver, he did have clearance from ground controllers to proceed. The Embraer pilot saw the van on the runway and called it out, but there was nothing he could have done at that point in the takeoff roll.

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:37

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Roger Embraer 145, we understand your position, but we are AIR Traffic Control. Give us a break. Over.

random001 > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:37

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Pooped. He could have pooped.

Quadradeuce > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:37

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Is it not protocol to look both ways before crossing an active runway?  

ttyymmnn > Quadradeuce 08/17/2018 at 10:38

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I’m not sure. I’ve been to the airport enough times to see EVERY vehicle stop and, if so equipped, turn on flashing lights before crossing any runway or taxiway. He did have clearance, though, which means that it’s okay for him to cross. But I would think that he still bears some responsibility, I’m sure.

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 08/17/2018 at 10:40

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If you listen to the audio, he got specific clearance to proceed via named taxiways by a guy who is supposed to know what is going on on the ground. Still, I think he should have looked.

user314 > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:41

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facw > LOREM IPSUM 08/17/2018 at 10:41

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You joke, but Ground Control is absolutely a thing at airports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control#Ground_control

Crossing an active runway might still be an ATC thing though (don’t recall, and my home airport when I was flying didn’t have any roads/taxiways that crossed the runway).

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:42

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If I were the pilot I would be livid.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 08/17/2018 at 10:42

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I think the pilot is the one asking ATC for the number to the complaint line. 

ttyymmnn > facw 08/17/2018 at 10:44

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Ground Control is a thing. Otherwise, who would talk to Major Tom?

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:45

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Holy shit, what a near tragedy.  If they had collided, many flights would have been cancelled, forcing people to stay longer in Branson.

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:46

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I was joke. But you’d think glancing both ways would be something one would do before crossing through such an intersection. Then again, that maniac was flying!

B ut seriously, how fast ya figure that plane was traveling? Maybe difficult to gauge just how fast he was accelerating and looked like a big enough gap. Then again, it's a plane, so, maybe just give them the right of way regardless.

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 08/17/2018 at 10:51

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That’s really terrible, but it’s also really good.

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 08/17/2018 at 10:53

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I think the second part is the meat of this. He may have looked, seen the Embraer, but had no idea of the closing speed. It may have looked a mile way, but been on him in a second. It’s like trying to run across the interstate. We just don’t have any frame of reference for cars coming at up at 70mph. I have crossed a freeway once, and it was terrifying.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:53

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I didn't hear the audio. There'd have been a prominent ecplitive or two if I were Radio...

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 08/17/2018 at 10:54

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YT video should have excerpts of ATC radio. 

WilliamsSW > Quadradeuce 08/17/2018 at 10:54

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YES!!! It is!! Pilots are taught to do that ( or at least I was) REGARDLESS even with clearance. 

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 10:55

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If they had collides it would have been on ground control, with the drivers failure to look as a contributing cause.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 11:00

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It’s like having a green light at an intersection. Sure, it’s your turn, and everybody else should be stopped, but you should still look, just to make sure.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:02

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I can’t listen to the audio, but was he * specifically* given clearance to “ cross runway x”? That’s required. If ATC didn’t say that, then he was not cleared to cross. Just giving taxiway info isn’t enough. 

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:08

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If you had Branson Barbecue , you would understand.

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 11:09

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Hm. You’re the second person to say that they can’t hear the audio. Here’s my transcript:

GC : Van 7, ground, what can we do for you?

Van: We’d like to go to [untelliglble]

GC : Van 7, cross runway 2-0 Charlie, then proceed Uniform Echo

Van: 2-0 Charlie, Uniform Echo

GC : Van 7, cross r unway 1-4

Van: Van 7, cross 1-4

Embraer: Truck! Truck! Truck!

From the Youtube poster: Note: Periods of extended silence in the ATC audio have been truncated, and irrelevant and/or incomprehensible sounds have been removed. Accordingly, while the audio is sequentially proper, it does not reflect actual timing as events occurred.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:11

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LEERRROY JENKINS!

AAANNNDDYY WILLIAMS!

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 08/17/2018 at 11:12

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I don’t understand that reference at all, but here is you star indicating that I have read it.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:14

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That was Dennis Miller-level obscure. Here to help (2 links, Kinja rams them together) :

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/leeroy-jenkins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Williams#1991–2012:_At_Moon_River_Theatre

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 08/17/2018 at 11:16

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Thanks.  I didn’t understand the Leeroy Jenkins reference either. Had to look that one up.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:18

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My BIL is 47 (and is a CIO) and has a t-shirt that says “Leroy Jenkins School of Strategy” in a very academic font.

For kids today, it’s an ancient reference. Almost as old as Andy Williams...

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 08/17/2018 at 11:23

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I’m a historian. Andy Williams I got. I have the red Christmas record. I have watched the Christmas specials. He was married to the woman who shot and killed her famous skier boyfriend and basically beat the rap.

Leroy Jenkins not so much.  The last video game I played was Lego Star Wars.

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:27

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And now you will remember to scream LEEEROY JENKINS any time you’re doing something stupid or getting in over your head :D

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:29

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I just meant that I wasn’t in a place to listen, not that it didn’t work.

That’s on ATC then. It’s possible the van took longer than expected to reach runway 14, but ATC i s supposed to watch that and revoke the clearance. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 11:41

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Gotcha.

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 11:51

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We just talked about this in ground school. ATC would have been in trouble, but ultimately, it would have been on the driver. You are supposed to look both ways to make sure traffic is clear before crossing any runway.

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command .

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft .

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator , send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator .

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 11:54

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A 737 typically rotates around 150 kts, give or take, which is ~ 170 mph minus whatever the headwind component was. Probably a little less for the Embraer, maybe 140- 150 mph if the winds weren’t strong?

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 11:56

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Yeah - the thing that you always have to remember as a pilot is that ATC is always sitting in either a comfy tower or windowless bunker, so it’s YOUR ass that’s hanging in the wind, not theirs.

Not sure how this applies to a van, though. Both the va n and ATC deserve a lot of shit for this.  

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 11:57

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Found this on Airliners.net :

The ERJ-135/145 series has no leading edge devices (slats). This requires a higher takeoff speed to be reached for a given weight thus increasing the takeoff distance. On the 717 I fly now, a clean takeoff (no flaps or slats) would require a rotation speed of over 200 knots. We, of course cannot do a clean takeoff in the 717 due to company/aircraft and airport limitations but you see my point. An ERJ uses flaps 9 for normal takeoff and with no slats on the front it takes a higher airspeed to provide enough lift over the wing without the extra scoop the slats give you to reach the takeoff speed which was determined by weight and power setting etc. On hot days with little wind and a heavy load and you really feel the speed on takeoff as your airspeed is the same as your groundspeed. 140-150 Knots at liftoff is about 172 MPH over the runway and sitting pretty close to the ground you feel the speed more than you would in a 737 and larger.  

TheRealBicycleBuck > LOREM IPSUM 08/17/2018 at 11:57

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ERJs are rolling at least 150 mph before rotating for takeoff.

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 12:03

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Part of our discussion was what the ATC can and cannot see. Weather is a particular problem for tower. From what we have been told, it’s common for ATC to call a new heading and point you right into a thunderstorm.

At our local airport, a plane had a hard landing and ended up off the runway. A guy on the ground called ATC to get permission to go onto the runway to assist with the crash. ATC responded, “what crash?”

LOREM IPSUM > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 12:06

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I’d say that it was moving at a pretty good clip  then!

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 12:07

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See this  ICYMI.

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 08/17/2018 at 12:11

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It’s definitely getting down the road.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 12:15

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That’s an even more convoluted way of saying IDK than I did!

Did some digging - Vr is around 125- 130 kts, initial climb just above that. So figure 145 mph minus headwind. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 12:20

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I had a friend who flew MD-90s for ValuJet back in the day. Not sure where or what he flies now, haven’t spoken to him in years. But one day I was out at AUS with my son and we were watching planes. My son asked me how fast they were going when they took off, so I rang my friend. He said, “Uuuhhh, it’s not that easy.”

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 12:43

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ATCs weather display isn’t very good. They try, but they just don’t have great weather data, so you shouldn’t rely on it.

And, at all but the biggest airports, ground control is done with eyeballs and binoculars, not radar. Even if they are paying close attention, they have blind spots behind hangars, etc.

For that matter, a lot of   tower ATC is done with binoculars out the window, to o.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/17/2018 at 12:46

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That’s true for the big jets - they have a computer calculate it for every takeoff. Weight, temperature, winds all matter - but there’s a typical range for airspeed at least.

On the other hand, a Cessna 172 rotates at 55kts IAS under most, but not all conditions.

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 13:13

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That’s what I’m learning. I also found out that a pilot doesn’t have to  comply with their instructions. If they point you into a thunderstorm, you can decline and ask for a new vector.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 13:30

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Yep - you have to communicate “ unable heading 180 due to storms” and ask for a new vector, but you are the ultimate authority.

Occasionally ( it’s very rare but I’ve heard it) ATC will get pissy and not want to do it, but they’ll typically give in - and maybe give you a routing that doubles your flight time. If worst comes to worst and they won’t cave, you declare an emergency, do what you want, and let the chips fall where they may once you’re safely on the ground. That’s truly a last resort to be avoided, but it’s available if it’s necessary for your safety. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 13:35

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I just watched a video on a guy trying to leave NY. ATC pointed him into a storm, he refused, so ATC put him back into the pattern and left him there ....

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/17/2018 at 13:42

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Was that the Aer Lingus flight from a month or so ago?

They got a little heated on that one. The flight eventually escaped New York after about an hour. ATC contended that everyone else was going that way so they got irritated.

Last I checked, “ everyone else is doing it” isn’t the best reason for doing something.   

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 08/17/2018 at 15:15

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That would be the one!

pip bip - choose Corrour > ttyymmnn 08/18/2018 at 08:40

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brown underwear time